Orval is Beer!

I posted this in Homebrew, but I’d like the input of the nonbrewing Orval experts(Clark) as well.

I’m brewing 10 gals this weekend. 5 gallons will be an orval clone:

these amounts are for 7 gallons so I will be scaling
9.6 lbs Belgian pilsner
1.5 lbs Belgian Caravienne
1 lb table sugar

O.G. 1.060

2 oz. 5.2% Hallertau for 75 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 20 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 5 minutes
2 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings dry-hopped

White Labs Bastogne yeast (Orval strain) in primary
Brett Brux in secondary

Source of recipe is
http://hbd.org/forums/messages/15516/19166.html?1069705487

I’m considering adding gypsum to my water to get closer to the old, more bitter Orval. I might also skip the sugar and go with an all grain formulation.

For the second Batch I will be making an American interpretation of Orval. The grist will be the same since I will mash both batches together and split the running. So that leaves the yeast and hops to play with.

For yeast I was thinking US-56, but I think this might be too boring. I’ve heard that WL Bastogne is a relatively clean strain, but having never used it, I don’t know if a clean Belgian yeast is really a clean yeast. I do like the idea of using US-56 so that nothing takes away from the beautiful American hops and Brett.

That leaves us with hops. Cascade is the quintessential American hop, so it is a must. I was thinking of bittering with Chinook and Columbus and finishing with all three. Other hops I have been considering are Simcoe and Amarillo.

Now, this can’t be an American interpretation without turning up the hops. The question is, how high? Can I make this a monster IPA and keep the Orval character?

I’ll definitely look at it more, but right away, I like your second batch idea. The beauty of Orval is in its simplicity of malts, but you have to be careful when using really high AA American hops, as Orval is not an overly sweet beer by any means. It all depends on how much balance you want, obviously, but I would shy away from Colombus as it is so bitter. Simcoe works well in Belgians, or at least I enjoy Kuhnhenn’s Simcoe Silly (Strong Belgian IPA sort of thing), so that would be interesting.

The other nice thing about Orval is that as the hop bitterness and flavor diminishes, the brett begins to grow more apparent, so no matter how heavily you hop it, even if it turns out way too bitter, over time it should even out as it looses hop bitterness.

After drinking a 5 year old bottle of Orval last week, I fully believe that Orval is just as good or better when aged properly.

And also, you say that you are going to add brett to secondary. Are you just going to keeep it in secondary for a long time and then keg it? If, instead, you are going to bottle it, you might want to do as Orval does, and add brett at bottling time.

Originally posted by ClarkVV
I’ll definitely look at it more, but right away, I like your second batch idea. The beauty of Orval is in its simplicity of malts, but you have to be careful when using really high AA American hops, as Orval is not an overly sweet beer by any means. It all depends on how much balance you want, obviously, but I would shy away from Colombus as it is so bitter.

Originally posted by ClarkVV
And also, you say that you are going to add brett to secondary. Are you just going to keeep it in secondary for a long time and then keg it? If, instead, you are going to bottle it, you might want to do as Orval does, and add brett at bottling time.

I brewed an Orval clone that came damn close last year. Here’s the recipe I used after much research; it looks quite similar to yours:

Orval Clone

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

19-E Belgian & French Ale, Belgian Specialty Ale

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.070
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 3 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 10.13
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.83
Anticipated SRM: 5.7
Anticipated IBU: 45.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.10 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043 SG 10.83 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
------------------- ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ----
79.0 8.00 lbs. Pilsen (2 Row) France 1.039 2
11.1 1.13 lbs. CaraVienne Malt Belgium 1.034 22
9.9 1.00 lbs. Turbinado Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
------------------- ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ----
1.75 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.30 34.9 75 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 7.3 20 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 3.6 5 min.
1.57 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 0.0 0 min.
2.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP510 Bastogne Belgian Ale




Notes
-----

Fermentation should be kept as close to 59F as possible.



Pitch a tube of
White Labs WLP650 - Brettanomyces bruxellensis into the secondary. Allow
at least a month for the funk to work its magic before bottling.



Bottle
with a small starter of the primary yeast strain.

Originally posted by MarkR
I brewed an Orval clone that came damn close last year. Here’s the recipe I used after much research; it looks quite similar to yours:
.
.
.
.
.
Bottle
with a small starter of the primary yeast strain.

Originally posted by artusory

Originally posted by MarkR
I brewed an Orval clone that came damn close last year. Here’s the recipe I used after much research; it looks quite similar to yours:
.
.
.
.
.
Bottle
with a small starter of the primary yeast strain.

Any problems with bottling after only a month with Brett? Gushers, Bombs, etc? Did you cut back on priming to compensate?

...and, no, I didn’t cut down on the priming sugar.

For bottling, I’ve done as Mark described, but I think I described my process in that link you provided above...I used the "normal" amount of priming sugar and bottled with an active (krausening) pint starter of Bastogne. No bottles have blown up to date, and this was a couple of years ago I think...although there are only a couple left from that first attempt. I definately preffered it as it aged.

For the American attempt, I’d consider using Mt. Hood, Crystal, Liberty, or Vanguard for the bittering hops...these are American versions of the Hallertauer. For the late additions, Willamette is an American fuggle(as styrian is a slovakian fuggle)...but if you want to make it more ’west coast’ you could go with something like Amarillo, Glacier, or Cascade...and dry hops could be any combo of hops. I’d probably keep the bittering in the same ballpark as the original...I’d also use the Bastogne as you’ll have a fresh cake of it laying around, and I think it will be clean enough not to make a mess with your PNW hops. As for turing up the hops, I probably wouldn’t do it much, outside of late additions without turning up the malt also.

Good Luck!

Cheers
matt