What is a Kolsch Style

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Message rpattinson beers 84 º 09:44 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by erway Kolsch as we know it was not a style at that time. It would be 2 decades before it was brewed with any sort of regularity. In addition, you obviously don’t know who Eric Warner is. Educate yourself. Thanks for putting me right. It’s obvious that I’ve been wasting my time reading German brewing manuals. Why bother reading original source material when modern American homebrewers know so much better. I would try educating yourself as well. Funnily enough, the definitive texts on German beer styles have not been written in English, but in German. I would point out that Wahl & Henius do a great job of describing British, German and American beer styles, yet never refer to German top-fermenting beer as "Ale". It’s irrelevant that Kölsch isn’t discussed - they don’t classify German top-fermenting beers as Ales. Have you read the book? It’s the classic American professional brewing text. Personally, I would say that if you haven’t read "Die Herstellung Obergähriger Biere" by Dr. Franz Schönfeld, you aren’t in a position to discuss German top-fermenting beers. It’s a work that has been used as a reference by every serious technical writer since. Of course I know who Eric Warner is. I own pretty much the whole series of Classic Beer Styles. Their inadequacies and lack of primary research are the main reason I started buying old brewing manuals, so I could get real information. Yeah, I really need to educate myself. I can give you some more excellent sources on German beer if you want: "Schule Der Bierbrauerei" by G.E. Habich "Leitfaden für den Brauer und Mälzer" by Rudlog Dickscheit "Die Bierbrauerei in der Neuzeit" by Simon Zimmermann "Jahrbuch der Versuchs- und Lehranstalt für Brauerei in Berlin" the 1899, 1901 and 1911 editions "Technologie Brauer und Mälzer" by Wolfgang Kunze "Brauer Handbuch" by Karl Hennies "Zeitschrift für das geasammte Brauwesen" To name just a few. I’m such an ignorant twat. What do I know about German beer? I’ve only read a few dozen German technical books. What’s that compared to Eric Warner?
Message 3fourths P beers 9492 º places 1576 º 10:05 Sat 5/17/2008 Last night I had a Kolsch brewed with lager yeast and fermented at ale temperatures before being lagered for a short time, which almost makes it a steam beer but also could be considered a warm-fermented helles, or even a warm-fermented kellerbier since it was only lightly filtered. Have fun with that one. HAH!
Message SilkTork P beers 7761 º places 111 º 12:19 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by rpattinson I own pretty much the whole series of Classic Beer Styles. Their inadequacies and lack of primary research are the main reason I started buying old brewing manuals, so I could get real information. I would agree that the Classic Beer Styles are less than scholarly - but the idea is to present a few home brew recipes rather than scholarly research into beer history. They do all have an introductory chapter which attempts to explore the history of the beer "style" being discussed, but as these books are written mostly by brewers rather than scholars then one can’t expect much in the way of rigorous research. Not all beer writers are Martyn Cornell, unfortunately. I accept the limitations of these books as reference sources, however they do serve as useful pointers for people who wish to get a rough feel for the background of a beer they are brewing. Where things go wrong is when people think all the information contained in the books is authoritative, complete or reliably accurate. Some of the stuff is good, some of the stuff is revealing and useful, but some of the stuff is guesswork, and some of the stuff is mistaken. It does reveal the poor state of beer writing that these are among the best-selling books on beer. The academic books on beer history don’t shift as much, though Beer in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance by Richard W. Unger appeared in paperback last year which indicates a healthy interest.

Message aledrinkerLS beers 101 º 13:06 Sat 5/17/2008 Rpattison, For craps and giggles, I was reading through an old medical text the other day from the 1920’s. It stated that masturbation caused one to become insane. We now know this is bullshit, as probably 99% of all males would be in padded cells. Taking 19th century brewing texts and presenting them as fact in the 21st century is downright silly. You seem to have this notion that Germans can call their beer whatever they want, regardless of any science involved. Kolsch is an ale because it’s brewed with ale yeast, scientifically it really is that simple. It’s a lagered ale, true, but it’s an ale nonetheless. So if a British brewer started calling their Porter a Weizen it would make it a Weizen? Obviously not. I own a 2003 Toyota Camry, but I prefer to call it a Mercedes, so that makes it a Mercedes? I think 100% of mechanics (and people with half a brain) would disagree with me.
Message rpattinson beers 84 º 14:00 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by aledrinker You seem to have this notion that Germans can call their beer whatever they want, regardless of any science involved. That’s exactly it: the Germans can call their beers what they want. What American homebrewers think is 100% irrelevant. I’ve decided to start classifying Pale Ale as a type of Altbier.
Message SilkTork P beers 7761 º places 111 º 14:40 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by aledrinker Kolsch is an ale because it’s brewed with ale yeast, scientifically it really is that simple. If it was that simple then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. You have a certainty that is not shared by everyone. Your logic goes that an ale is an ale because it made by a yeast that is defined as an ale yeast. The problem is that an ale yeast is defined as being a yeast that makes an ale. So it goes round in circles. You see? You need to break that circle and examine what an ale actually is, and in what way it is different to a lager - and also think about that grey area where the definitions of ale / lager get blurred. You also need to examine your own belief in this scientific "ale yeast" because Saccharomyces cerevisiae is also used in making wine and bread. Yes, there are strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae which are better for ales, or wines or bread, and one of those strains is used for making lager. An understanding commonly used by some people of what is an "ale yeast" is that it flocculates near the surface of the wort. However we know that some "ale yeast" will flocculate near the bottom of the wort. Yeast flocculation is a strange process that depends partly on constituents of the yeast - the proteins and specific genes such as FLO1 - and partly on the fermenting conditions. The transcriptional activity of the genes that influence flocculation is affected by the nutritional status of the yeast cells as well as other stress factors. Parameters that influence flocculation include nutrient conditions, amounts of dissolved oxygen, pH, fermentation temperature, pressure, size and shape of fermenting vessel, yeast handling and storage conditions. Flocculation is a strain-specific action, making it difficult to predict specific responses. In addition, certain genes involved in flocculation are variable, causing frequent changes in the profile of some yeast strains. It’s not quite as simple as it first appears!
Message aledrinkerLS beers 101 º 22:15 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by rpattinson Originally posted by aledrinker You seem to have this notion that Germans can call their beer whatever they want, regardless of any science involved. That’s exactly it: the Germans can call their beers what they want. What American homebrewers think is 100% irrelevant. I’ve decided to start classifying Pale Ale as a type of Altbier. And that’s fine if you want to classify Pale Ale as a type of Altbier, but it doesn’t make you right. And if Germans can call their beers what they want, then so can Americans, English, Belgians and every other region associated with certain styles. Why discriminate?

Message puzzl beers 3258 º places 138 º 23:29 Sat 5/17/2008 Why do people care so deeply about this? Can’t we just call it a hybrid style and all get along?
Message puzzl beers 3258 º places 138 º 23:31 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by puzzl Why do people care so deeply about this? Can’t we just call it a hybrid style and all get along? Not to downplay the importance of proper classification at all. I’m as much for guidelines and proper terminology as the next guy. However, this seems like a rather clear cut example of a hybrid to me, I just don’t see the point of the endless arguing that it has to be one or the other.
Message Cletus beers 6349 º places 233 º 23:36 Sat 5/17/2008 Originally posted by puzzl Originally posted by puzzl Why do people care so deeply about this? Can’t we just call it a hybrid style and all get along? Not to downplay the importance of proper classification at all. I’m as much for guidelines and proper terminology as the next guy. However, this seems like a rather clear cut example of a hybrid to me, I just don’t see the point of the endless arguing that it has to be one or the other. Kolsch is an Imperial Porter that deserves its own style, the top 50 is all f****ed and dark Lord has too much sludge in it. Everything sucks and is overrated and if a beer isn’t barrel aged for at least a year and only sold for 1 day, it isn’t worth the styrofoam cup you’re drinking it out of and ticking and small samples are bad and if you rate beer you are a moron because beer is meant for enjoying. Not rating and ticking.