BrewDog Launches the World’s Strongest Beer

Originally posted by SilkTork

Originally posted by Cletus


I understand where you are coming from, but fortified means alcohol has been added. Alcohol has not been added here. Water has been removed.

I think we are in danger of getting lost in semantics.

My point is that a fortified wine is a partly a fermented wine, and partly a fermented wine that has been distilled.

A freeze-distilled beer is partly a fermented beer and partly a fermented beer that has been distilled.

No, it’s not semantics at all. The equivalent to fortified wine (eg port or sherry) for beer would be beer with scotch added. That would be partly fermented beer, party distilled beer. The freeze distillation is just distilled, plain and simple, it is no "half and half" type deal.



I think what really needs to be said here is that freeze distillation and traditional heat distillation are functionally the same thing; the only real difference (and the only reason one has been allowed on the site) is that heat distillation is far more effective in concentrating the alcohol than freeze distillation. In fact, up until a few years ago, no one had (claimed to) even get eisbeer above 20%. I think for now we may as well let them stay, they are so few and far between, but if we start seeing 30% beer after supposed 30% beer then it may make sense to put an upper limit in place.

Originally posted by puzzl

Originally posted by SilkTork

Originally posted by Cletus


I understand where you are coming from, but fortified means alcohol has been added. Alcohol has not been added here. Water has been removed.

I think we are in danger of getting lost in semantics.

My point is that a fortified wine is a partly a fermented wine, and partly a fermented wine that has been distilled.

A freeze-distilled beer is partly a fermented beer and partly a fermented beer that has been distilled.

No, it’s not semantics at all. The equivalent to fortified wine (eg port or sherry) for beer would be beer with scotch added. That would be partly fermented beer, party distilled beer. The freeze distillation is just distilled, plain and simple, it is no "half and half" type deal.



I think what really needs to be said here is that freeze distillation and traditional heat distillation are functionally the same thing; the only real difference (and the only reason one has been allowed on the site) is that heat distillation is far more effective in concentrating the alcohol than freeze distillation. In fact, up until a few years ago, no one had (claimed to) even get eisbeer above 20%. I think for now we may as well let them stay, they are so few and far between, but if we start seeing 30% beer after supposed 30% beer then it may make sense to put an upper limit in place.

I agree with much of what you say. What would that upper limit be? My feeling is that when the majority of the character of a beer has come from distillation rather than fermentation then it is no longer a beer, but a spirit. So 15% could be a limit, if the original beer was 5%, and was distilled up to 15%. I don’t think we could have an arbitrary line, saying "nothing above xx%" - I think we should have a logical rationale, and it seems to me that "if over 50% of a product is distilled, then it is no longer a beer" is a logical rationale. However, we have a long standing tradition of not back-dating changes in guidelines, so the BrewDog, which is already on the site, would stay.

Originally posted by SilkTork

Originally posted by puzzl

Originally posted by SilkTork

Originally posted by Cletus


I understand where you are coming from, but fortified means alcohol has been added. Alcohol has not been added here. Water has been removed.

I think we are in danger of getting lost in semantics.

My point is that a fortified wine is a partly a fermented wine, and partly a fermented wine that has been distilled.

A freeze-distilled beer is partly a fermented beer and partly a fermented beer that has been distilled.

No, it’s not semantics at all. The equivalent to fortified wine (eg port or sherry) for beer would be beer with scotch added. That would be partly fermented beer, party distilled beer. The freeze distillation is just distilled, plain and simple, it is no "half and half" type deal.



I think what really needs to be said here is that freeze distillation and traditional heat distillation are functionally the same thing; the only real difference (and the only reason one has been allowed on the site) is that heat distillation is far more effective in concentrating the alcohol than freeze distillation. In fact, up until a few years ago, no one had (claimed to) even get eisbeer above 20%. I think for now we may as well let them stay, they are so few and far between, but if we start seeing 30% beer after supposed 30% beer then it may make sense to put an upper limit in place.

I agree with much of what you say. What would that upper limit be? My feeling is that when the majority of the character of a beer has come from distillation rather than fermentation then it is no longer a beer, but a spirit. So 15% could be a limit, if the original beer was 5%, and was distilled up to 15%. I don’t think we could have an arbitrary line, saying "nothing above xx%" - I think we should have a logical rationale, and it seems to me that "if over 50% of a product is distilled, then it is no longer a beer" is a logical rationale. However, we have a long standing tradition of not back-dating changes in guidelines, so the BrewDog, which is already on the site, would stay.

It’s not logical and I doubt it will ever happen. I agree that they aren’t like any other beer we’ve ever had on here, but neither is Nanny State. Brewers are always going to push the envelope whether with flavour, ingredients or in this case, ABV. I don’t understand why we would set an arbitrary limit that would really only apply to a handful of beers.

Originally posted by puzzl

Originally posted by SilkTork

Originally posted by Cletus


I understand where you are coming from, but fortified means alcohol has been added. Alcohol has not been added here. Water has been removed.

I think we are in danger of getting lost in semantics.

My point is that a fortified wine is a partly a fermented wine, and partly a fermented wine that has been distilled.

A freeze-distilled beer is partly a fermented beer and partly a fermented beer that has been distilled.

No, it’s not semantics at all. The equivalent to fortified wine (eg port or sherry) for beer would be beer with scotch added. That would be partly fermented beer, party distilled beer. The freeze distillation is just distilled, plain and simple, it is no "half and half" type deal.



I think what really needs to be said here is that freeze distillation and traditional heat distillation are functionally the same thing; the only real difference (and the only reason one has been allowed on the site) is that heat distillation is far more effective in concentrating the alcohol than freeze distillation. In fact, up until a few years ago, no one had (claimed to) even get eisbeer above 20%. I think for now we may as well let them stay, they are so few and far between, but if we start seeing 30% beer after supposed 30% beer then it may make sense to put an upper limit in place.

First off, the term "freeze distillation" is been applied to the act of solution crystallization, it is NOT distillation has no alcoholic vapours and esters have been removed via evaporation from the source. This beer is concentrated by the act of physically removing the solid materials that leave behind of stronger percentage of alcohol in the remaining liquid solution. Quit twisting terminology to justify your argument against the addition of this "beer" to the database. At no point has any alcohol been added into this beverage.

If the argument is against the repeated concentration via ice crystallization of the mother liquid solution into a form of beverage that we can simply no longer accept as beer, then I am all for that. (Then again I am all for the removal of sake, ciders, and even meads from the rateBEER website, not like that will ever happen) So if included on the site then I would suggest a new "non-beer" catagory called Concentrated Malt Beverage in which ALL ICED beer should be moved no matter how traditional they may have been.

Oh, here is something to consider if it has not brought up already, Crystallization "of alcoholic beverages is illegal in many countries, as it can concentrate poisonous compounds, for example fusel alcohols, in the original fermented beverage to unhealthy levels." Basically this "beer" has at worse, the ability to poison it’s consumers and at best it is a recipe for a massive headache.

No thanks

Originally posted by Cletus

Originally posted by JamesBrewDog
Puzzl -

This was lab tested at Heriot Watt University brewing Department using 2 different methods. The samples were conducted by Jim Mackinlay who is an Alalytical Technician at the brewing school.

You can email him on - j.mackinlay@hw.ac.uk

The results were 32.18% and 31.95% ABV

I am unsure why you would accuse us of lying here and claim that the beer is 25%

James, BrewDog

Post the actual lab results and test used, please. No one is calling you a liar. This is simply an instance where we’ve all heard it before and are skeptical as to the actual validity of the lab results. I’ve never heard of the lab you used, so I have no idea how reliable they are, or if they were paid to give an unbiased result, or one of a chain of labs that were used until you got the results you desired for your marketing campaign.

Heriot Watt is by far the most well respected brewing school in the UK, and I am sure that their lab there is plenty sophisticated enough to handle any and all testing of alcoholic beverages.

Originally posted by BBB63
First off, the term "freeze distillation" is been applied to the act of solution crystallization, it is NOT distillation has no alcoholic vapours and esters have been removed via evaporation from the source.

Exactly. I don’t see what Silk has against Brewdog, and I don’t see where he’s getting this incorrect info that the beer contains "distilled alcohol" and it sounds as if he’s trying to make out the beer has additional ethanol added to it.

It contains only alcohol that was made by the fermentation albeit in a much more concentrated dose due to removal of the water and, thus, IMO should still be classed as a beer albeit a very unusual one.

Freeze distillation and heat distillation are two VERY different things although they achieve kind of the same aim, but the main difference with regards to beer is that freeze distillation (at a much lower level) has been used for a long time to make Eisbock and so it’s a legitimate beer-making procedure.

Originally posted by BBB63
Oh, here is something to consider if it has not brought up already, Crystallization "of alcoholic beverages is illegal in many countries, as it can concentrate poisonous compounds, for example fusel alcohols, in the original fermented beverage to unhealthy levels." Basically this "beer" has at worse, the ability to poison it’s consumers and at best it is a recipe for a massive headache.

I was wondering about this after someone brought up the fact that heat distillation acts as a "purifier" of the alcohol. Is there potential that extreme "eisbocking" could leave harsher alcohols behind while removing the "purified" alcohol? Much like BBB’s said, at best that leaves it tasting worse from extra fusels, and at best could be getting dangerous. Chemists?

Originally posted by OKBeer

Originally posted by BBB63
Oh, here is something to consider if it has not brought up already, Crystallization "of alcoholic beverages is illegal in many countries, as it can concentrate poisonous compounds, for example fusel alcohols, in the original fermented beverage to unhealthy levels." Basically this "beer" has at worse, the ability to poison it’s consumers and at best it is a recipe for a massive headache.

I was wondering about this after someone brought up the fact that heat distillation acts as a "purifier" of the alcohol. Is there potential that extreme "eisbocking" could leave harsher alcohols behind while removing the "purified" alcohol? Much like BBB’s said, at best that leaves it tasting worse from extra fusels, and at best could be getting dangerous. Chemists?

First of all, the link between higher alcohols and toxicity is greatly overstated. I’m not saying that there isn’t some danger, but the majority of that occurs from improper fermentation (underpitching, high gravity, etc) and isn’t much of a problem for commercial brewers.

Second, I highly doubt that people will be knocking back a six-pack of any of these things, whether due to price or general intensity, so the issue of toxicity is lessened from that point of view as well.

Thirdly, although any toxic compounds may be concentrated, just like ethanol, it isn’t as though all of the higher alcohols remain behind, some is removed in the ice fraction as well. Indeed, most people who suffer from methanol toxicity do so by mistake, whether accidentally or intentionally drinking pure methanol to get drunk . In addition, a common (but reversible) side effect of severe alcohol induced acidosis is blindness... it is hard to say exactly how often a story a blindness following drinking is temporary or permanent. There is very little literature on this occurring from drinking ethanolic beverages, even though it is a common meme.

The overall message is this... there isn’t going to be any safety issues with these products if the brewer follows safe fermentation practices and people consume at a reasonable rate.

Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
The overall message is this... there isn’t going to be any safety issues with these products if the brewer follows safe fermentation practices and people consume at a reasonable rate.

I expected the toxicity possibility was pretty low. Thanks for clearing that up. But what about the taste issue? Is the extreme eisbocking potentially going to make fusels and harsher stuff more prominent? Or does that go back to the issue of improper fermentation introducing higher alcohols in the first place?

Originally posted by Magicdave6
Cry all we want gents, but i think theres evidance enough. And yes i do have a bottle next to me and yes i will have one at a tasting next month and yes you are invited to taste it.

Taste it? Why would you want to do that? This beer is worth more in geek points and ego boosting just sitting on a shelf since it has already been declared ultra ticker worthy. Just write up the review from looking at the bottle and its stated alcohol content - let’s stop pretending otherwise - we all know the higher the abv, the better the beer - so this has to be the best beer in the world. Beer is meant to held up for trade bait, or lorded over other beer geeks that its on your shelf and not theirs. Taste it?