Lots of Good points there Benzai,The_Osprey and SinH4
I think its a fine line Benzai to be balanced between new and old Users. But i do think that i havent seen the Explosion in RB use in the way ive seen the Beer market Explode. Ive long failed to understand how ratebeer stayed afloat based on the small userbase and small membership fee.
Why hasnt it exploded. I think its a mix of Untappd is just so much easier to fall into and the rise of twitter and facebook meaning other methods of meeting beer people.
I think RB will vanish if we dont grow, So im prepared to see compromises to try and get people started, hopefully they will review, but if not thats fine, those that want to will. But i recon Most reviews never read, and only person that care is themselves.
So i think over all numbers should count if either. but have some Review only stats etc
@The_Osprey , i think people on whole do just want to tick, thats all i really wanted when i started. Im pretty sure id have joined untapped if i came along in last few years. But i think RB has more to offer than ticking or even rating, but for people to discover that we need to attract them. So im totally behind allowing ticking and having it fully integrated. Offer Badges etc for 100 Reviews etc and some of those maybe not many but hopefully enough will start reviewing
Im also all for ticks counting to score, Id put a minimum of 100 or such but if people are sticking around and using the site then there opinion should count. Yeah its nice if backed up with review. but time have change
But what makes RB unique isnt just its review. Its the people Community mix of forums, places and reviews, adding ticks to this mix isnt gonna change that just enhance.
@sinh4 "if you can't put together 75 characters, then wtf" people can, most just dont want to, and by insisting your not gonna encourace the numbers RB needs to survive
In summary as long as RB doesnt stop me doing what i currently do, adding extra functionality features, that allow others to do it in a different way doesnt bother me, as i suspect in the end my choice is accept that RB has to change, or see it die and dissapear |
If I left Ratebeer today, I dont think Ratebeer would survive beyond the New Year. |
Originally posted by The_Osprey
It would be great if ticks required location data to be filled in.
That wouldn't work unless we went along the path of alowing all places to be included and linking up with Foursquare, or some such, in the same wayas Untappd does. It would be unrealistic to expect someone who is just ticking a beer to add the place if it's not already in the database. At the moment we do have a bar that a place has to clear for inclusion. It's a rather low bar - and one that many thinkis too low - but a bar nonetheless. |
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Craig I think we're not far apart with our opinions. However, a few things I'd like to add to the discussion.
"i think people on whole do just want to tick, thats all i really wanted when i started. Im pretty sure id have joined untapped if i came along in last few years. But i think RB has more to offer than ticking or even rating, but for people to discover that we need to attract them. So im totally behind allowing ticking and having it fully integrated. Offer Badges etc for 100 Reviews etc and some of those maybe not many but hopefully enough will start reviewing"
Very true. When I started I wanted to score a beer and that was it. I even asked whether I was allowed to add a general comment like you see people do every once in a while. And I now fully support that we don't want this. Because it wasn't allowed I started to rate properly. Meaning: thinking about what I was doing. When I didn't think about what I was actually drinking, what it actually tasted like, my scores were way less accurate, basically all over the place. It was sort of random. Having to write a review has brought me way more beer knowledge than I would otherwise have had.
I'm ok with the tick-option being available and improved like you, and if they want badges then let there be badges, that's fine. But I don't think the ticks should count for beer averages etc. Some stats of course, like their total number, but displayed as total number of ticks, not ratings and not combined as if it were the same thing.
The reason for not counting towards the averages and such is primarily based upon my own personal experience. So I'm not saying this is true for everybody, but I think most people will have gone through roughly the same experience from the day they started to score beers. Like I said above, my ticks were all over the place. "Don't like it/like it" is 100% of the criteria, so "don't like it" would get a 0.5 or a 1.0 quite quickly. Only until I started to actually think of what I was drinking, because RB required a rating /review, I started to discover and value the nuances. And the distinction between appearance, aroma, flavor, palate and overall made sure my ratings were balanced and more fair.
I have a few cousins with whom I got wasted on crappy lagers a decade ago or so. One of them is on UT now, but otherwise hasn't changed a bit. So his ticks are really harsh, not at all thought through. Now, I'm not saying every rating on here is super thought through and there's nothing better, also not saying every UT user is a semi-dead blind horse with palate fatigue and a bad temper, but I strongly believe that the way a RB rating comes together is a better way towards a fair score for the beer. And if for every 100 ratings there would also be 1000 harsh not thought through ticks, this would influence the average big time. Not what I'd like to see. In fact, why not create the possibility to compare / introduce more stats: so an average rating score for the beer and an average tick-score for the beer? Would be interesting to see the differences.
TL;DR: rating requires a person to at least for a moment think of what they're actually drinking and how it should feature in the different attributes, creating a better thought through score than just a "random" tick. While I agree ticking options should be improved and supported, I don't want to see ratings and ticks merged and beer averages should remain separate. |
Great Post Rene.
"Having to write a review has brought me way more beer knowledge than I would otherwise have had. " --- oh totally. I still think i know Jack Squat but writing has forced me to think a bit more, and im glad i got that push
Your Probably right combining Rates(no txt) and Reviews(with txt) Could be problematic. Your right people are probably on Different scales. But so am I with say FatPhil. My concern is. What if a beer has 100 Rates(no txt) but no reviews Does that mean that beer doesnt have score. Or worse 100Rates all saying Suberb but 2 reviews(with txt) from a bad bottle Does that mean its score is low though almost everyone loved it.
Plus i dont want people joining seeing that they are being treated as 2nd class and then leaving , rather that coming round to reviewing.
I think we need to accept beer world has moved on, there far more casual users. But that doesnt make the data less valuable.
But i appreciate concerns that why i suggested maybe a 100 limit before your rates (no txt) start to count. |
Originally posted by cgarvieuk
My concern is. What if a beer has 100 Rates(no txt) but no reviews Does that mean that beer doesnt have score. Or worse 100Rates all saying Suberb but 2 reviews(with txt) from a bad bottle Does that mean its score is low though almost everyone loved it.
Plus i dont want people joining seeing that they are being treated as 2nd class and then leaving
To the first part of your post above: yes, that would mean the 2 ratings provide the average score. That in itself could be an incentive for tickers to rate it ;). But in all seriousness, this is probably best not to happen. Which is why I suggested the separate averages. That also tackles the 2nd part of what you said above: if tickers don't get any influence or average, they might feel second class which urges them to leave. Not what we want, so hopefully the tick-average can prevent that, while at the same time "saving" the raters-average from being influenced and thirdly there's a new stat born: difference between rating-average and tick-average. Everybody happy. At least that's what I was aiming for :) |
Separate averages for ratings and ticks... Yes please!
And separate columns in brewery pages and separate ratings and ticks in profiles.
Otherwise it is not usable to rate and tick and people have to choose only one style... Now I have ratings and ticks mixed and confusing. |
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@cgarvieuk and @Benzai
Interesting discussion. While I share the concerns for the future of this site, I don't think the solution is to untapptify. UT already exists, and the people opting for the easy solution won't change site to do the exact same thing they're doing over there. To be honest, they're probably much better off sticking around where they are. RateBeer needs to do what it does best, which is ratings and statistics. Improving even more on those, adding ticking, and bettering the community with forums and places could make for a future for us poor souls yet, and might even pull a couple of newcomers? |
Originally posted by tmrmwel
@cgarvieuk and @Benzai
UT already exists, and the people opting for the easy solution won't change site to do the exact same thing they're doing over there.
True. The new souls we're looking for aren't the current UT users but future, potential users. Cause like you said, once they've started somewhere they're likely staying. |
Originally posted by Benzai
Originally posted by tmrmwel
@cgarvieuk and @Benzai
UT already exists, and the people opting for the easy solution won't change site to do the exact same thing they're doing over there.
True. The new souls we're looking for aren't the current UT users but future, potential users. Cause like you said, once they've started somewhere they're likely staying.
Yeah. Im not expecting people to Move. But theres always new people coming along.
I suspect its a lost cause. Its Definitly an uphill struggle. But i think the attempt has to be made.
RB never had the Investment it needed. Hell how many times have i seen that premium was too expensive. So im not surprised Joe has taken what he could and is making the attempt.
Will it work, well i hope so. I think RB has lots to offer. But much as i like it the way it is, im convinced its Adapt or die. How we do that is Joes call, we might not all agree with all decisions. And im gonna say when i dont. But im also going to accept that changes need to be made, and try consider the pro and cons of both
Ticking appears to appeals to more people than rating in detail. Ive even heard brewers saying they prefer Untappd as the users dont pretend to be experts. Not that i agree with that sentiment. But sometimes thats how people see RB, So accepting that may be something we all need do in order to see ratebeer have a chance, all be it a slim one |
